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BobBob is offline
 
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I'm just going to basically repeat what I said on the previous thread but with added bits.

First of all, you cannot compare a fetus to sperm. Sperm is like the flour to the dough, if you don't roll the dough around in the flour to create bread it will become nothing but what it was before; dough and flour. But if you do roll the dough and the flour, it becomes the making of bread, all you need to do is put it in the oven, then abortion is like opening the oven and chucking the bread out; why roll the dough in the flour if you didn't want the bread, surely it's a selfish act, because if you really didn't want that bread you could of given it to someone else (adoption).

Purely, as a woman I can't think about aborting something that is pretty much there due to my own actions or faults. It's something that is ready to grow inside me for 9 months and one day call me mum.
"It has no feelings, it's a fetus." That goes back to my bread and dough story, it's just a complete waste of something. Some people would do anything for a child, so why abort when you could adopt?
If a woman's life is at risk then yes, there is no option but to abort, it's a different matter.
Some women think completely differently, and most men think very differently about abortion, but for me I just don't know how women can abort their baby, I could never do it, but that's me.


 
Last edited by Bob; 01-23-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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BobBob is offline
 
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So destroying the baby is the answer? If that's the case, people need to start understanding that sex produces babies, either teenagers need to be taught more about the risks and conception; which they aren't, because I know by being a teenager myself that it's rarely ever brought up in sex ed classes.
I just think abortion is being taken too lightly, it's a huge thing. Most girls these days have sex and think that it barely matters if they fall pregnant because they can just get an abortion. There's more abortions than adoptions, so you can't predict that parentless children would be the outcome.


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Originally Posted by Skillum View Post
In regards to this, it's the same principle regarding sperm.
Never actually thought about it that way. Good point.

I was never really against abortion anyway, but yeah...
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Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
people need to start understanding that sex produces babies, either teenagers need to be taught more about the risks and conception; which they aren't, because I know by being a teenager myself that it's rarely ever brought up in sex ed classes.
I completely agree with that. I think that's possibly more of the issue compared to abortions actually happening often, due to the fact that many people don't understand the choices they are up for when they have a baby, especially when it's accidental (in this case, the potential initial problem leading to abortions).

More of the issue needs to be focused with that. It's never going to be perfect of course, but getting people (especially the most frequent age group associated with abortions, which is probably teenagers) to understand the situation more would be beneficial.
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ThreatThreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Skillum View Post
In regards to this, it's the same principle regarding sperm. One tends not to avoid masturbation due to feeling guilty about killing sperm. These sperm all potentially have the potential to fertilise an egg and thus produce a life.
I'm not sure I follow you here. If your body only produced a limited number of sperm cells, I could understand. But your body constantly produces sperm cells, so I don't see any reason to feel guilty?

Originally Posted by Skillum View Post
the fetus has the potential to become a life yes, but it is not far enough down the line yet - it just happens that it is further down the line than sperm, say.
I don't understand this either. Having the potential for life does not depend on how far along the baby is. It doesn't matter if it's 3 months down the road or 3 days, taking it away takes away its potential. What do you mean by "it is not far enough down the line yet"?

Originally Posted by Skillum View Post
But you see, it has not crossed the line where it is worth being deemed as a human life. Particularly before 12 weeks, as this is a definite consensus within the scientific community, although many argue up to before 24 weeks.
If you don't mind I'd like to see a source for this - I've read a number of different articles and I haven't seen any evidence of consensus.


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Originally Posted by Threat View Post
I'm not sure I follow you here. If your body only produced a limited number of sperm cells, I could understand. But your body constantly produces sperm cells, so I don't see any reason to feel guilty?
I think he just means that those sperm cells are basically going to waste, too, when you relate it to the whole abortion process. In Skillum's post regarding sperm, he said one tends not to avoid masturbation due to feeling guilty about killing sperm.

Basically, I think he was trying to explain that there is tons of controversy about abortion but there's limited controversy about masturbation (excluding religious beliefs maybe). It's a bit confusing now that I looked it over again. Correct me if I'm wrong, Skillum.

@Threat

I definitely agree that it's sad thinking about how that fetus has the potential to actually have life. However, in its fetus form, it's just the fact that the fetus has not yet experienced anything close to how we are emotionally. Overall, the fetus would have not even known. I kind of think of it as sleeping for weeks and weeks on end. Personally, we don't remember how we sleep and what we're doing as we sleep.

I know where you're coming from though. It all goes back to the "well, that fetus had potential to have the emotional capabilities we currently do" point. And honestly, all I can say is that in the fetus' present form, the potential baby would have not known.

To be more clear, I don't like the process of abortion, but as unfortunate as it is, it needs to happen because as Vault already mentioned with statistics - there isn't enough demand for adoption compared to the amount of abortions occuring. The main issue here is that a big amount of people seem to be careless or oblivious to the choices they make when having sex, which needs to change.

As of right now, however, abortion is the right thing to do under the right circumstances. For a potential child's sake, don't let them risk the increased negative impacts that could occur to the child.
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If you cannot contemplate life, cannot sustain your own (within reason), and are not able to understand that you are alive, then you cannot be put on the same standard as a human life.

If you cannot make a choice, then why should we prevent others from making one in your stead?



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SkillumSkillum is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
Some women think completely differently, and most men think very differently about abortion, but for me I just don't know how women can abort their baby, I could never do it, but that's me.
That's perfectly fine, just as long as you are not actively trying to impose this viewpoint onto other women (which I'm sure you're not lol, but ya know what I mean). Also, surely as a women yourself you would have a better understanding that women should have the freedom to do with their body as they please (within humane limits of course, i.e aborting a fetus before it has fully developed).

/end response to Kerry

Ultimately, this argument is always going to be in gridlock unless pro-lifers come to the understanding that the fetus is not properly developed and therefore not worthy of being called a human life.

Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
If you cannot contemplate life, cannot sustain your own (within reason), and are not able to understand that you are alive, then you cannot be put on the same standard as a human life.
If pro-lifers can get their head around this and understand that the numerous factors which would morally warrant an abortion (i.e freedom of women, rape scenario, insufficient finances, and overflowing adoption centres as Vault mentioned) outweighs the fact that a fetus has the potential to become a life (just like sperm) then surely they will see why abortion is necessary?


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ThreatThreat is offline
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@Skillum

Still waiting for a response to the source question.

Also, if you could reword your sperm comparison in a different way that would be helpful because it doesn't make sense to me as is.

Originally Posted by Skillum View Post
Ultimately, this argument is always going to be in gridlock unless pro-lifers come to the understanding that the fetus is not properly developed and therefore not worthy of being called a human life.
That's your opinion. I might say life begins at conception. There's no scientific basis (that I'm aware of) that factually says when life begins / what constitutes human life. If there is one I'd like to see a source.

Originally Posted by Skillum View Post
If pro-lifers can get their head around this and understand that the numerous factors which would morally warrant an abortion (i.e freedom of women, rape scenario, insufficient finances, and overflowing adoption centres as Vault mentioned) outweighs the fact that a fetus has the potential to become a life (just like sperm) then surely they will see why abortion is necessary?
The way you bolded that word makes it seem like you're saying there's a chance that the fetus won't develop into a human, lol.
And in any of those circumstances a woman may feel the need for an abortion, but to say it's necessary...well... . Also, where does it say adoption is overcrowded? Surely that can't be used as a reason to dismiss that option when there's no way you can conclude that in all cases.


 
Last edited by Threat; 01-24-2014 at 03:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Threat View Post
@Skillum
Also, if you could reword your sperm comparison in a different way that would be helpful because it doesn't make sense to me as is.
Sorry about that, I was rather tired! I will try and simplify it. It all hinges on potential for life. An undeveloped fetus has a potential to become a human life just like sperm does, the only difference is that the fetus is more developed than the sperm in terms of achieving this aim. Now this is kind of redundant an explanation if you believe life begins at conception, but you see where I am coming from in terms of it being about the potential? The potential for something to become a life doesn't necessarily mean it should be pre-considered to be a life.

Originally Posted by Threat View Post
That's your opinion. I might say life begins at conception. There's no scientific basis (that I'm aware of) that factually says when life begins / what constitutes human life. If there is one I'd like to see a source.
It is generally agreed by scientists that the fetus is not fully developed before 24 weeks maximum into pregnancy. Now if you believe life begins at conception, then will just be going round and round in circles. There is no point in discussing when 'life' begins in this case, as it is clearly extremely subjective.

Therefore, I think the case for abortion has to be this:
Is taking the 'life' of an under-developed fetus incapabale of exhibiting any attributes that define human life (such as emotion, animation, physical feeling), more moral/beneficial to society than outlawing abortion and thus causing rape victims, mothers sufficient finances, drunken women who have simply made a mistake in their intoxicated state, as well as women in a plethora of other non-ideal circumstances to have to give birth to a child and thus either A. Give it up for adoption (causing overflowing orphanages as well as thus likely giving the child a sub-standard quality of life ) or B. Keep the child (resulting in it either having a sub-standard quality of life due to some of the example circumstances I've mentioned above, or causing the mother extreme guilt/emotional suffering)

I think it's clear that if you really cared about life you would be for abortion.

Originally Posted by Threat View Post
The way you bolded that word makes it seem like you're saying there's a chance that the fetus won't develop into a human, lol.
Oh come on now, you know there is a chance of that...use ya brain!


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